Ep. 02 | LA Clippers Head Coach - Doc Rivers on Why He Plays Golf on Game Day
Doc Rivers joins us on this episode. Doc is the current head coach of the Los Angeles Clippers and a former player of the team. He holds many accolades, including the NBA All-Star, NBA Champion, and Coach of the Year award. Last year, he earned his 900th win as a head coach.
During his playing and coaching career in the NBA, golf has played a significant part along with many others.
As a successful player, coach, and father, many of his ways can be applied by anyone in leadership and those who strive to become a leader.
In this episode, we discuss…
How Doc was introduced to golf
The benefits golf has for basketball players
Traits that make a good coach
Traits that make a good player
Why Doc continues to coach
CONNECT
Doc’s Instagram: @docrivers
Doc’s Twitter: @docrivers
Mac’s Instagram: @mactoddlife
Leo’s Instagram: @leo_ugp
TRANSCRIPT
Leo
Welcome everybody to another episode of the Urban Golf Podcast. Today's guest is Doc Rivers, the Clippers Head Coach, but also an avid golfer. We've had the privilege to get to know Doc over the years, and we're excited to have him on the podcast.
Mac
Yeah, I'm pumped about this one. Just a little bit of his accolades, he was an NBA all-star in the eighties. Marquette University, retired his jersey number 31. He was the USA basketball male athlete of the year in ‘82. NBA champion as a coach with the Celtics in 2008, unfortunately beating my Lakers four games to two, and the NBA coach of the year, back in 2000. He was the All-Star game Head Coach in 2008 and 2011. And he's the current coach of the Los Angeles Clippers and just an incredible coach, an incredible recruiter. Just an amazing person. There was just so much we learned in this one and we're lucky that we've been able to train the guy at UGP. He's been a big part of our community as a member at Bel Air, local here in LA. Just so much to learn from this episode with him.
Leo
Yeah. I think what I'm most impressed by is, he’s such a high performer as a player. He had long stints with his team as a player. And then now as a coach, as a father— he actually coached his son for a while— I love these conversations because it's so rare with people that are that successful and you can tell they have a process and they have a mindset that's different. We get into the art of coaching and really, how do you get the players to buy in? And how do you get players to trust you at that level? He has really good techniques that he talks about that can be applied by anyone in leadership.
Mac
Yeah and I think he's a real testament to being a great player in the NBA and then becoming a coach. It's not that common, that transition going well in any sport. But when you see them, it's a special force and a special combination where they really understand and relate to the players. Then they're able to get the best out of them. And I think he's just one of the best, not just in basketball, but across all sports. One thing I found fascinating in that regard that he talks about was what it was like in basketball, in the eighties. And what it's like today with cell phones and all these sorts of things and distractions. So it was great. A lot of applicable lessons for business leaders, for entrepreneurs, CEOs, middle level management, and anybody who's young and trying to make their mark on the world too. Not only that this guy is so special, his son Austin Rivers is a great player in the NBA. Really had to grind his way out those first few years to find a place and actually played for him with the Clippers and now is with the Houston Rockets. So, NBA All-Star, winning coach, and won a championship with the Celtics. His son is a great player in the NBA, really great role player. Just so much to learn, I loved it. I hope everybody loves this episode as much as I did.
Leo
If we start on the golf side, how'd you get into golf and why do you play golf?
Doc
Well, that's a great question. How did I get into golf? Well, it's funny. I got into golf. My dad played golf, he was one of the only black men in Chicago golfing. Played at this municipal course and every once in a while, he'd take me out. But I was his caddie. So I never swung a club and I couldn't stand golf because every time I went to a golf course, I felt like I was working for my dad. But then when I got traded to the Clippers when I was a player, Larry Brown was the coach and Larry Brown would have these practices that were actually pretty quick and short, and you were left with time. So I started golfing, me and Ron Harper, who ended up playing for the Bulls and winning titles. We picked it up. I think my first round of golf was at Riviera, which I don't know if that should be your first round. That should come later. I was awful obviously, but I fell in love with the game from that point on. Before, I played it because I just liked it and I wanted to learn how to play it. I play it now for two reasons. During the summer I play because I like competing and I just love the game. During the season I play to get away. I'll play on the day before a game, I'll play on the day after a big loss. The old school coaches will tell you can't be out on the golf course. And my thing is I'm going, I think it's great for me. I don't play a lot of 18 hole matches during the season. There's just not a lot of time and I'll squeeze one in here and there. I do notice that I don't play as well during the season as well.
Leo
Yeah. That's interesting though. So you actually use it in season as a way to kind of gather your thoughts and meditate on the golf course.
Doc
Oh, all the time. I belong to Bel Air and I have to go pass Bel Air there to go home, there's times like there's an hour and a half of sunlight left and I'll drive up to Bel Air on my way home and just run out and play three or four holes, just to be out there by myself. So I definitely use it as a meditation device during the season.
Mac
Coach I'm always curious about, like with elite athletes, I hear a lot of different opinions on it, but doing golf is so humbling and is something that's really hard to get good at. Being great at basketball and then playing a sport that you're not great at. What do you think about that? Are there some players who are like, I don't want to do anything I'm not great at?
Doc
No, I think it’s a challenge. I think golf, you don't ever own, I don't think you ever own any sport for that matter, no matter how good you are. But it's such a frustrating game, you know? I can go out now and play basketball. I haven't played basketball in years, but I can still go out and make shots whenever I want to. Golf, you just can't go off and do things whenever you want to. Even when you play well, the next day is no guarantee you're gonna play well again. It's a game of focus. That's darn sure you have to have great mental focus. I tell people all the time, I wish I would have golfed when I was a player. I really think it would have made me a better basketball player because of the focus that it requires on every shot. I really do wish I had played as a player.
Leo
That's really interesting. When it comes to coaching, we believe that the art of coaching is universal. It's not necessarily that much different depending on the sport. Obviously there's elements of the different sports, but what do you feel makes a great coach? Because there's a lot of different styles.
Doc
Communication. There's a lot of things, obviously knowledge, the know-how how to teach, but all of that goes back to communication and people skills. I go to basketball clinics sometimes, I'll just walk in and go sit in the back at a high school clinic. I'll go to golf clinics where I'm just watching the coaching. Because I'm always amused. Football is my favorite to watch coaching. Natural type of football, Leo, American football. Because there's like a hundred coaches on the field, but all these players, and trying to get them organized. I would say communication, and you have to have this ability to make them care, but they're not going to care unless they know you care. You know what I mean? I would say communication, people skills, and then whatever it is that you're doing, you have to sell your in your case, your player, in my case, is my players and my team, on a common goal. What are you trying to get? What do you want? I think it's really important to get your player or your team to buy into what they want. I always ask guys when we sign them, what do you want? And they'll always look at you and I'll say no, like what do you want? Like, what do you want, what do you want to do? What do you want to be? Let's be honest. A lot of them will say, I want to win the world championship. We know that that's not true from all of them. They all say that, but I always ask the question, are you willing to win a world championship but do something that you don't want to do, or do you just want to win and be allowed to do whatever you want to do? If that's the case, you're not going to win. But if you're willing to give up yourself, then you have a shot at winning. And it goes all back to communication.
Mac
So how do you do that with grown men? I was watching a thing about Nick Saban and Bill Belichick talking about the difference between college and professional. How do you get grown men that have their lives, or they're young still, but how do you get them to sort of buy into that? They're getting paid a lot of money. What's some of the things?
Doc
The daily sale. The daily sell of the dream man, like every day. And let's be honest, some of the guys you're not going to get. Those are the guys, if you can, you move on or you use them to the way that they can't hurt your team. Because some of those guys, you can't move on. But it's a constant sale, be a star in your role. In some ways college is easier, obviously because they have you like, you can't go anywhere. You're trying to make it to the pros. Everything's about your attitude that you have to protect. But when you get to the pros and then they give you money, the one thing that I've learned, Butch Harman actually told me this as well, that the better the player, the easier the student. You would think that that's not true. You would think it's the guy that is trying to make it, or the average player, that is the guy that listens the most, that has the most drive. It is not. It's the best players, the Kawhi Leonards of the world, Kevin Garnetts of the world. They also listen the most, they also are the most coachable. The reason is, they have big goals. Their goals are reaching more than everyone else’s and every time they play, they play like there’s something on the line. A lot of the guys under that want what the guy has, but they don’t want to do the work. They would rather blame, or do something else. And that’s the difference. Those are the guys you have to get, the great guys. Kawhi Leonard showed up this year, we asked each guy on the team in front of each guy, what do you think your role is for the team? Each guy had his own answer and Kawhi’s answer was so simple— affect winning. I want to win. My role is to affect winning. Then you have to get into it with each guy, well how do we do that as a team? Everyone has their own way that they think we can win. Then you have to communicate, how do you have to do that as a team? When you get the right group of guys that all buy into their roles and each guy decides, okay this is my role and I’m going to be a star in my role. Then you have a chance of having a hell of a team.
Leo
That's awesome. There's so many parallels in what we’re talking about. When we hire new coaches, what they want to do versus what they're willing to do. What is your take on that? We spoke to Collin Morikawa the other day, and it was interesting when he was talking about his junior years, looking at other players and not wanting to be like them, but rather create your own history and being you in on that stage. Do you see that a lot where people are like, I want to be like Michael Jordan. But that identity is actually in someone else and not in themselves.
Doc
Yeah. I see that a lot. Most of the guys, even though they don’t outwardly say it. Like you’ve never heard Kobe say I want to be like Mike. You never hear LeBron say I want to be like Kobe or Mike. But you know that’s their target. It’s so obvious, right. There’s no doubt in how they play. Kawhi Leonard plays the most like Jordan when you look at his hands and body type. Kobe did as well. But they also have this thing as they want to be like them, but they want to beat them. It’s a strange thing. When you watch Kobe play, it looked like Michael at times, but Kobe still wanted to be even better. Kawhi wants to be the best. So those are the guys that are pretty easy. It’s the other guys who are trying to mock a guy that he can’t be, or a guy that wants to stand out on his own, like “I want to be me.” That’s the comment that coaches get all the time. You probably get that in golf. “I don’t want that swing, I want my swing.” We get, “I don’t want to play like this, I want to play like me.” If “me” is helping the team, then we’re good. But if “me” is not helping the team, I’m gonna need you to play like this. It’s a tough one. You think about it in my job, every single player that I get was an All-American probably at some point in his career or an All-State in high school or Mr. Basketball. So you’re getting 12 and 15 guys that have used to be “the guy,” and now you’re asking one of them, “hey, I don’t want you to shoot, I want you to pass. I want you to rebound your defensive player.” And they’re looking at you sometimes, I led the ACC in scoring last year. Well that’s great, but you’re in the NBA now. We have our scoring. It’s a tough sell for sure.
Mac
Something that I'm really interested about coaching and getting into coaching, they talk a lot about in golf and in all sports about how being a great player doesn't necessarily translate to being able to teach the game or coach the game. Can you talk a little bit about that? You see some players that try to transition to coaching and you were a great player and you become an amazing coach. But there's a lot of other stories of great players that didn't transition to coaching very well.
Doc
Yeah it’s very true. Just because you know the knowledge, does not mean you can teach the knowledge. I’ll give you a great example. Ty Lue was an assistant coach for me. The Lakers tried to hire him. He coached Cleveland and won a title. I had Ty Lue for 10 games and I walked over to Ty and said, “hey, when you retire, I want you to be a coach. I will hire you. I don’t know where I’m going to be at that time, but when you retire…” and the reason is his delivery. Ty has this ability to tell you that you’re an awful player and you believe it. And you listen to it and you hear it. There’s another guy that can walk up to the guy and say the exact same thing, and the guy wants to punch him. You have to be able to deliver the information and deliver the news. Players, they want a couple things. They want to know if you know, that’s number one. They want to know that you have knowledge. The second thing is that they want to know if you can teach them your knowledge. The third thing is and it always is this— can you help me? You have great knowledge, you have great stories, there’s a lot of ex-players that can tell you all the stories in the world. But when you need a guy to teach them how to run and pick and rolls, and he can’t do it because he only comes from his own way, he can’t really teach you how to do it. Then players have no use for that. So knowledge is great, but you have to be able to get it through to the clients, to the players. Otherwise, it doesn’t work. It’s wasted knowledge.
Mac
There's obviously so many different methods of delivery and styles. Like you go from like a Bobby Knight to a Coach Wooden or something like that. What’s style, and how much is that part of it, if you can say things in different ways?
Doc
I think it’s your style though. I think too many coaches make mistakes, and they try to be someone else. I had a guy that was on my bench, I’ve had several of them through the forum that has gone on to be head coaches. The NBA will show their practices, doing training camp, and I watched it and I was like, that’s not him. I called him up, I said, “hello, what’s your name?” I’m not gonna use the guy’s name, but he was like, “no, I want them to know that I’m the head coach. Then I say, “well you are the head coach.” And he says, “yeah but I gotta make sure that they know that I’m the head coach.” And I said, “well, I tell you what. I need you to get out of your office right now and open the door and look to the right.” Then he looks to the right, “what am I looking for?” “So what does that name tag say?” “It says head coach.” I said, “okay, we all know you’re the head coach. Now go coach. They’ll want to follow you and you’ll be the head coach when you start coaching, instead of acting like the head coach.” So it is so many different styles, John Wooden had his own style, Pop had his style, I have my style. I always get asked, “what is your style?” I don’t know. I just coach. So whatever that is, is my style. There’s times that I can be very compassionate. There’s times that I can be very rough. I would say one of the things that players will say that I am brutally honest and I just give them the information. I don’t try to sugarcoat it. I don’t think that works. There’s coaches that try to trick you into things. I don’t do that. I just think, give me the information. I’m going to tell you what you need to work on. And I’m going to tell you how good you can be. I have this saying, “I’ll never coach you to who you are. I’ll only coach you to who I think you should be someday.” If that’s a problem, then you’re going to have a problem playing for me.
Leo
That's great. So what's your assessment process? When players come to UGP, we assess them. How do you assess someone's potential in the future? We spoke to a top instructor the other day, James Oh, and he says, when I ask them to do a drill 20 times, they come back to me and they've done it 200 times. Versus the players that say okay I did it 20 times, what’s next? What is your main assessment when it comes to potential in a player?
Doc
There's a lot of categories. The one you were talking about is that's one of the ways to reach a potential that you possibly can. The first one is, is he a worker? Does he only do the required work? The required work is the 20, right? The unrequired work was 200. Here’s a guy that naturally does the unrequired work. That tells me that guy has a chance to reach his potential. The big one though obviously, is you have to get to a place with your people, with your players in my case, where you see the same thing that they see. Because there’s times that I can look at a player and I will say to myself, this guy can be the best. I'll give you an example. DeAndre Jordan, who I coached. When I got here, DeAndre Jordan had a pretty bad year a year before, and I was setting up a meeting with him and I had not yet met him. I told our GM at the time, Andy Roser, I'm taking DJ out to dinner. I just want to talk about what I need him to do next year. The GM said, good luck. You’re going to have no fun in that meeting. He was really down and wanted to trade DJ. So I go to this meeting and I have this piece of paper and I want to say I had 10 things that DJ should be. I sit down and we started talking and I asked him and said, “why did you struggle so bad last year? The year before you were pretty good. And last year you took a huge step backwards.” He says, “I never got the ball.” And I said, “what do you mean you never got the ball?” He said, “well they never pass me the ball.” I asked him, “do you think they should have passed you the ball?” And he said, “yeah, the coach told me to work on my offense. I worked on my offense. But they still never gave me the ball.” I said, “so you just gave in.” He says yeah. I said, “all right, well I’m your new coach. I’m never, ever going to pass you the ball. He stared at me like I was an alien. I said, “I need you to work on your offense, DJ, do you hear me? I’m saying the exact same thing as the coach last year. I need you to work on your offense. And I’m still telling you if I pass you the ball then it’s a mistake.” And he is looking at me in bewilderedness. Then I said, “but I’m going to make you the captain of our defense. I think you should be Bill Russell. I think you should make the All-Defensive team this year. I think by doing that, you should lead the league in rebounds this year. I think you should make the All-Star team because you’re on the All-Defensive team, and you led the NBA in rebounds. And you now what’s going to go up? Your points. You will score. To me, if you want the ball, go get the ball. You’re a center. We shouldn’t have to pass you the ball. You should have the ability to go get the ball. I need you to lead in blocks, rebounds, and defensive efficiency. I'm going to name you in front of the team, the captain of our defense.” And I asked him, “is that something you can do?” And he says, “yeah, I can do that.” I said, “but you do understand I'm not going to you offensively.” He says, “I kind of understand that.” And that was the only part he wasn’t buying into. Then at the very end, I asked him,” if you had one shot to win for your life on our team, who would you pick?” And he went down the list, Chris Paul, Blake, Jamal Crawford, JJ Redick, and he named someone else. I said, “you’ve named five people already and not you. Why in the hell would I ever go to you?” He started laughing and I said, “but I need you to work because the ball will be passed to you when you’re open under the basket, DJ, and you have to learn how to score from that spot.” DJ went on to make all those things, he made the Olympic team. The only thing he didn’t do is win the title. But it was a great example of a guy that o lost in what he should be. He wanted to be an offensive player. He was never going to be a great offensive player. But he was taught that by being a great defensive player and a great rebounder and dominating, you can be an Olympian gold medal winner. You can make the All-Star team, you can make All-NBA, you can lead your league and rebounds and you can get a lot of stuff. So that’s a great lesson with players.
Mac
That was an awesome story. It makes me want to ask a question about your son, plays in the NBA, he’s a great player. It’s a very rare story too, that an NBA player, a star like yourself, has a son that plays in the NBA, has an accomplished career and a coach. So much of your life revolves around mentorship. Do you get more joy out of other people’s success?
Doc
Yeah, definitely. Austin was a tough one for me because I never know I was going to coach him and didn’t plan on it. So coaching him was hard. It was enjoyment as well at times, Austin was drafted, I think he was a ninth pick in the draft or a tenth, I don’t remember. So he was a pretty high draft pick and he came into New Orleans and didn’t play well and was really struggling. Our GM at the time, Dave Wohl came to me and said, “hey, I think we can get an undervalued asset. We can get a top 10 player that hasn’t performed, but I think he’s really good.” I said, “that sounds great.” He said, “the problem is it’s your son.” And I was like, “oh man, I don’t know.” Dave says, “I’m telling you, you just need to trust me on this.” And we did it, and Austin played great for us. It changed his career. Austin was on his way out of the league and now he’s been in the league nine years. You think about it, it’s amazing. Austin was as celebrated as anybody coming out of high school. Then he goes to Duke and one year leads them in scoring and makes game winning shots against North Carolina, comes into the draft. Austin came in thinking superstar. I’m going to be a superstar. And he had to learn how to be a role player. And it took him a while. I think that’s what was holding him back. I would say his last year with us, he finally gave in like, you know what, I can be a heck of a role player and have a heck of a career and be very happy. When you watch him in Houston right now, he just plays with joy. He's no longer chasing something that's not there. He's chasing how to be a winner, how to fit in. It took him a while, but for me, it's nothing better for me than watching others do well that I had something to do with. When I was a player, well, you're doing well and your teammates are doing well. When they'd go somewhere else, you don't really want him to do that cause he's on another team. As a coach, like Shai is in Oklahoma, we had him last year. He's playing great. It makes me happy. I love hearing, even Chris Paul, you hear him talk sometimes and he'll say a phrase that I use and now he talks that way and it makes you feel great, it really does.
Mac
That's awesome. And coach, even staying with your boy a little bit, going back to when he was a little guy, did you know when he was little that he was going to be a good player?
Doc
I didn’t. My oldest son Jeremiah, when he was in grade school, you thought Jeremiah was going to be a really good player. Then when he got to high school, he was a good player, he ended up going to Georgetown on a scholarship and transferred to Indiana. Austin was late. I'll give one guy credit for recognizing Austin, was Danny Ainge of all people. I was coaching the Celtics and Austin was in the sixth grade or seventh grade and he had just made a huge jump. Austin was on all these AAU teams, from fifth grade, sixth grade. He came off the bench and then in the seventh grade, his first game as a AAU player, he scored like 46 points out of nowhere. And then literally from that point on, it just continued. We were at practice in Boston and after practice, I always allowed if players had kids, for them to come out on the floor and just shoot around and do. Danny walks over to me, puts his arms around me and said, you know all three of my kids, boys were on the floor playing and he said, “you see that one over there?” I said, “who?” He said, “Austin.” I said, “yeah.” He said, “that's the one.” I said, “what do you mean that's the one?” He said, “he's special. He will be an NBA player.” And I said okay, but I didn't see it. I'm going to be honest. At that point, he weighed 104 pounds probably and I just didn't see it. By sophomore year in high school, you clearly saw it. I will say that. He stood out and what stood out to me, the difference, I would say in our three kids is his mental toughness. People were always on him. He's my son. Jeremiah was pretty good. He was living in his shoes as well. Austin didn't care. He was a worker. That one that you guys talked about, the guy that did the 200 over the 20, that was Austin. Austin was doing that 1,000. The coach told him 10 shots, he’d take a thousand shots. Also, Coach KC said something that's interesting, and I'll ask you guys since you're in golf. If you're a superstar in sports or really good player, you're probably lonely. Because you do a lot of work by yourself. And that's awesome. On Friday night when all the kids his age were going to the parties, the high school parties, Tom Klusman— the guy that coached Rollins— gave Austin a key to Rollins University's basketball gym. And every night, Austin would leave the house and go to the gym all by himself and shoot.
Mac
All for his love and passion of the game.
Doc
Parents push too much, parents push away too much. You gotta be a parent. I think the parent role in coaching should be supportive. Now, what did the coach say? Well, that means you just gotta keep working. You just got to stay in it. I hate when I'm at a game and you see these parents standing up yelling at their kids or even yelling at the coach or disagreeing with the coach. There's many times even Coach K would sit me, when Austin played at Duke, Coach K was sitting right behind their bench. And I hated that seat because like, there was a couple of times cause K's yelling Austin you can see him looking up at me and I'm like, have at it. You're the coach. I'm just listening. So I remember Coach would call me once he said, “what do you think about Austin, if we did this.” I say, “hey coach, I have no opinion.” And he was like, “no, you're a basketball guy, Doc. I just want to get it.” I said, “I'm sorry, not on this one. I have no opinion.”
Leo
That's great.
Doc
Yeah, and that’s basically our job as parents. Is to put our arms around our kids, give them places where they can work. But if you're pushing them to work too much, I think there is a fine line. You can say, “hey, why don't you go shoot hoops?” You do have to be the guy that tries to push them, but you can't be the guy that pushes them away. And I think too many parents, they push their kids away from the game that the kid actually may have loved, but the parents wanted more and it hurts the kids.
Leo
So Doc, when it comes to your drive, cause you had a long career as a player and then as a coach. When we hire coaches here, we ask them, what's your “why?” What's beyond the surface level? Like, I love golf, I love coaching, I love helping others. Those are kind of given. So we ask why maybe five times, what's underneath those layers for you? What's your why? What drives you now?
Doc
Competition. Before I get to the next part, my first why, why do I still coach? Why do I still do it? Because I love competing. I want to be the best, I want to win championships. Then the biggest why is to affect others. It's funny, that why wasn't there when I first started. My why when I first started, I wanted to be a coach, I wanted to win. Those are my whys. My whys now are, competition drives me. I enjoy it. I enjoy winning. I want to be the best. I don't want to win games, I want to be the winner. Winning games do nothing for me. My players laugh sometimes after a big game, they’re in there celebrate and I’ll walk in, alright guys let’s get it in. And even Kawhi made a comment like, you cool with winning? Yeah but we’re not the winner yet. This is nothing yet. What's the story with Tiger Woods, in the middle of his career? Someone went over to his house, looked around, and there was no trophies in his house. I think at that time he had like 10 majors. And no one could find the trophies. They asked him where the trophies were, and he said, “I don't know.” And they said, “what do you mean? You don't know?” He's like, “well, I don't know.” “Don't you like the trophies?” He said, “not what I'm playing for. I think they’re in the basement. Someday I may display them, but not what I'm playing for right now. I want to be the best.”
Leo
Where does that competitive spirit come from? Was that your parents or do you remember just being relentlessly competitive as a kid?
Doc
That's a great question that I don't know the answer to. My guess it came from my neighborhood, tough neighborhood. Great basketball provides at least a high school a dozen recruits. Now has 11 NBA players from one high school. So it's always been a basketball town. But there was a park that, listen, if you went to Winfield Scott Park, you played and you lost, you’re set. They didn't care who you were. To stay on the floor and you had to win. I went every day, from second grade to the day I graduated from high school. I was at one of those two parks, whichever day the best games were, I was there. And you had to work your way up. You have to take some lumps, you have to take some humiliation where guys wouldn't pick you for a while. Because I always played with my brother who was three years older than me, I would go to the park with him and early on, he didn't want me to play with him. He didn't want me to be there. So I would say that's where it came from. Just love of the game, being around the game, and fighting just to get on the floor to play the game. I think that's where the competition, the competitive stuff came.
Mac
That's awesome. Coach, having this long-term process of being in the game and sticking with it, a lot of people would say, “why are you still doing it?” What drives you? How are you maintaining this consistency? And how do you continue to go back to it and want more?
Doc
I stay fresh that's for sure. Pat Riley, when I first started coaching— I think my first year in the middle of the summer, the phone rings and it's Pat Riley. He says, “what are you doing?” I said, “I'm in the office.” And he’s like, “doing what?” I said, “watching film from last year.” He said, “do me a favor, turn that thing off. Get out and don't come back for a month. Go to a beach, go do something. You will be burned out in two years if you keep doing what you're doing. So I've learned how to enjoy my life and love my job at the same time. And it's a process. At times I do feel like that, cause I'm consumed. I really am. I'm consumed by my job. I love it. I guess when that goes away is when I stopped doing. But listen, I'm fortunate this year. We have a team that I believe can win it. I tell them every day they should win it. So that drives you. When you have a shot, you can go through an NBA career and never have an action shot to win a title. I've been fortunate enough to play on one team that I thought could have won it. I've coached— this will be my third, fourth time with a team that has a shot to win it. That’s fortunate. Doesn't sound that great, but I love coaching. I do. And so as long as I have this fire, I want to do this job.
Leo
It seems like there's a common theme when we talk to high-performers. It's an obsession. Very few successful people are not obsessed with what they're doing. It's almost like it’s detrimental to their health. And that's kind of what you're talking about.
Doc
It is.
Leo
Because you had a long career as a player and you stayed in teams for a long time, what was your secret to have consistency and a pretty steady career, both as a player and as a coach? Do you perform really well off-court too, and dealing with the people behind the scenes? What was your process there?
Doc
I think I've always had decent people skills. I started my first 11 years. So when you are a starter they all say, are you as good enough as your problems? I always say that I'll coach anybody that's good enough for their problems, but once their problems are better than their talent, then you don't want those types of guys. I learned early on from bad examples, obviously of players who were really talented, but just a pain in the ass to deal with. I always would watch. At the end of their career, in their eighth and ninth year, they were out because the problems became better than their talent. That taught me, don't be that. Not only try to be the best player, but try to be the best teammate because even when your talents erode a little bit, people still want you on the team. My last two years, I was struggling with my knee, ACL, PCL, MCL, back surgery. And yet, I played 15, 20 minutes a night, San Antonio. I thought the main reason they wanted me around wasn’t my basketball anymore, it was because of me in the locker room, my basketball IQ, and just having people's skills. I think that's one of the reasons that you can have longevity.
Leo
That's great.
Mac
Yeah, staying physically and mentally fit too. How much does that play in? Because obviously that could reprieve for you.
Doc
The mental part is still, I think, untapped. I think golfers have been far ahead of the mental than the NBA. I think we are far ahead of most of the NBA, our team, because I'm just such a big proponent of mental health. Not just the psychology of it, we have these good golf doctors who are just working on the competitive stuff. We've gone past that. We have that and we also hired a mental health expert, to deal with depression and dealing with things like that. I still think the mind is the last resource that we still haven't mastered in sports. There are guys who probably didn't need it as much. Tiger. When Tiger was in his first 15 years in the league, he did not need a mental coach. Then he went through all the trials and tribulations that just took him through. I bet he needed one then. My guess is he's probably used one. But they’re so important in sports, and the athletes are still scared to use them because it's a show of weakness.
Mac
The stigma attached to it.
Doc
Yeah the stigma. I think what we're learning is, the smarter athletes look at it the opposite way. They look at it and say this is not a stigma, it's an advantage. That’s starting to change in a positive way, finally, in our league. I think it's going to be great for our league.
Mac
Coach, I got a couple of questions about that too, around the team. Especially with this time where everybody's routines are so knocked off. I have 40 employees or so, different ages, different parts of their career. I've got three kids as well. I've got a nine-year-old, a six-year-old and an eight-month-old.
Doc
Oh my gosh.
Mac
My nine-year-old is like sobbing in my arms last night. It's finally hitting her because it's been a couple of weeks— two, three weeks— and she's just like, I miss my friends. I miss my grandma. I was hugging her and it's really like, routines and everything are just so disrupted. We're doing zoom calls with all of our employees. We're trying to keep everybody in some sort of a habit and keep some sort of discipline and routines, because otherwise we’re just lumped around watching Netflix. What are you guys doing right now? Because you guys are at the height of the season, getting ready for the playoffs, everybody's in peak condition. How are you staying sane mentally?
Doc
It's really tough. Talking about anxiety. Look at Lou Williams. Lou Williams has been in the league 15 years and has never had a real chance in his entire career to win a title. And now this is the year. All of a sudden after 60 games, they pulled the plug. His anxiety level is off the charts. Are we going to play? Are we going to do it? What's going on? So our two mental health guys, psychiatrists, are talking to the players, they're talking to our staff. We do Zoom probably three days a week as a coaching staff where we all get on and we're working for the season, what we're doing every day. Yesterday we did our playoff opponents. We ranked who we’ll probably play. Today at two o'clock we're going to get on, and now we're going to dissect that tape. We'll be on for two or three hours, every day, three times a day. Our strength coach and our conditioning coach does a Zoom session with our players four at a time, where they can see their heart monitor on the screen. Do those four then five the next day, then four. You get to touch 12 or 13 of our players daily. Every day, I sit down and I call a player. I try to make it three to four players a day and I have all my coaches doing the same thing. So we're trying to do a lot of things. Contact is one thing, people don't realize how important the human touch is.Like you were saying, you had the opportunity to hug your daughter. That touch is important. We can't touch our players right now. We can only talk to them. And so we're doing that. We've adopted this saying now, win the wait. That's what we're telling our players. We don't know when we're going to come back. We don't know if we're going to come back. But we know if we do come back, it's going to be quick and you're going to have to be ready. So win the wait. While we're sitting here waiting, let's win it. Let's be in the best shape than any other team. Read a book. That's what I'm giving my guys. Telling them to read stuff. Not about basketball, about life. Win the wait, that's what we're doing, that's our model. And that's what we're using.
Mac
So you’re just always looking forward and the progress doesn't stop, regardless of the obstacles. We're going to keep moving and keep our eyes on the prize, regardless of what’s going on.
Doc
Exactly. And expect different. I already conditioned them to adopt it and understand it. When we do come back, it's not going to be the normal way this year. And that's okay. We cannot use that as an excuse.
Mac
It sounds awesome. And obviously it wouldn't be surprising that you'd be doing a lot of progressive things to keep everyone moving during a very unconventional time. Talking about teams and culture, because I can barely play golf anymore, now I just run a company. It's the same as you, I rarely grab a basketball kind of thing. Teams and culture— I'm 35. I'm about to be 35 next month and I started the company when I was 26 or 27. And most of the people we're hiring are like 25, 26 years old. I can start to see generational gaps already. I didn't grow up with a cell phone. I didn't get a cell phone. Facebook started when I was a freshman in college. Can you talk a little bit about— the NBA has changed so much. I mean the amount of money these guys make right out of college. Talk about that culture and generational gap.
Doc
It’s amazing. When I played my first nine years, there were no cell phones. Think about that. So, you know what guys did? They talked to each other. They got on the bus and the buses were loud. When we would play in Milwaukee and then you get on the bus and go to the airport, it was loud. As chatter guys are like killing each other. In my day, if you got beat that night by a player, not even if you won the game and some guy toasted you, you'd get on the bus and when you're walking towards the bus, you're like, “oh boy, they're going to get me.” And you get on and guys are killing you. Today, that would never happen. First of all, the buses are quiet. Everybody's on their cell phone. And then as the bus approaches, then you can hear some chatter. Every once in a while, something funny happened in a game, you'll hear guys talking. But guys, the outside world now has the ability to get inside your job. Where when I first started playing, that could never happen. When I played, by the time we got to the airport, we got on the plane, our guys probably hadn't talked to their wives, their family, their agent, no one. They had to fly all the way back, land, get to the hotel room, and then they had a chance to talk. And probably didn't talk to a lot of them. Now, by the time we get on the plane, that one player has talked to his agent, he's talked to his handler, he's talked to his wife, he's talked to his family, and they've all told him exactly what he wanted to hear. “Man, you should've got the ball more. This is what they said about you in the broadcast.” It is so different. You have to deal with the outside world. We talk about that. The peripheral opponent— we tell our guys, we cannot allow their peripheral opponent to get inside of what we do. In your case, you get so many young guys. Your guys come in with ambition, like this is where they are, this is not where they want to be. I think the goal for me too as a coach, when rookies come in, this is where they are and I need to plan. Right now you're playing in the G League, but you're going to get here if you do these things. You still got to take these steps. I think the young generation wants to be there and they don't love taking the steps. But you have to get them to buy in, to take the steps to.
Mac
We've grappled with this over the last seven years building the company like, should we ban cell phones? Should we do this? Should we do that? How do you block the noise out?
Doc
You don't. You manage it. If I'm in the locker room and the guy's on his cell phone, you start out with, how I do it and this is my way. I start out with sarcasm, I hope whoever's coaching you at home is telling you the right stuff. Tell your girlfriend I said hi. Tell your wife I said hi. When I walked through the locker room before games and I see guys on the cell phone, I make just some hilarious comments and then about the third or fourth time you walk in the locker room, half those guys don't have their phone out anymore or the other players are starting to make funny comments to them, you know? But then, there's a point in a place where there are no cell phones. When we're having a meeting, you get fined if your cell phone goes off or if you have it in your hand or if you're looking back at your phone. There are circumstances where it's allowed. Hey coach, my wife is sick, such and such, is it alright if I have my cell phone on my lap? You gotta be careful with rules because rules will get you in more trouble. We have a rule book and it has one word in it. It’s called respect. If you use that as your guideline, if I'm walking in a room and I'm talking to a client and you're on the phone and I can hear you, that's not very respectful, you know? So if you use that word, you can go places with it and teach them what's right and wrong. At least that's what we try to do.
Mac
And in a lot of ways too, it's leveraging their peer group, which is their other players with them.
Doc
Definitely. There's nothing better than players policing themselves. If you can get that going in your company, then you're on to something. If you can get your players telling the other player, “man, put that down,” then you’re on your way.
Leo
Yeah. If we go back to golf before we wrap up here, there seems to be more basketball players, playing golf, leading the charge. Is it being more prevalent in basketball? Golf in general?
Doc
I think so, even though unfortunately I have the golfless basketball team. Which I can't stand. I don't have one player that actually golfs. That is so sad with this team. I'm so disappointed in them. It's funny, with Boston, I had Ray Allen. Even in the finals in 2008, when we beat the Lakers, Ray was struggling a little bit from the field. And we had three days where we had to play the Lakers, three games in a row. We had an off day, and I had his club shipped in. We went out to Bel Air and played, and Ray played well. The next day, I think he broke the record with three points made. You just need to get out of this darn room and go back to do what he does all the time. Ray and I played all the time, Chris Paul and I played a little bit, but this is an interesting group. Kawhi plays basketball. That's it. And he plays everyday, all day. I think Shamet is my target. He's a great shooter. Most of the great shooters can golf. I told Shamet we're going to be golfing soon. So that's my new target.
Mac
What about Austin? Is he golfing?
Doc
Austin's a terrible golfer, but he does like it. But my gosh, is he slow and takes forever. So I don’t enjoy my golf with Austin.
Leo
We talk a lot about what sports transfers well into golf. You have hockey, all the racket sports really, transfers well. Hand-eye coordination and a little bit about the body movement in itself. Basketball doesn't really have the hip movement, the separation. Do you think that basketball players have a tougher time learning golf?
Doc
I do. I remember when I was early in my playing days, I had to ride with Nick Faldo and I remember him telling me, the first thing I thought was cool, he said, “do you want to play or you want a lesson?” And I said, “I want a lesson, as we're playing.” And he says alright, he likes teaching. And at the very end he says, “I don't know enough about basketball, but you guys move everywhere. Your feet. You're always sliding and moving. That's what you do when you swing a golf club too. If you can learn how to quiet your body when you're swinging, you're going to be one heck of a golfer.” So it is different, but I do say this— the target guys are all great golfers. The field goal kickers, great golfers. The hockey guys, great golfers. The pitchers, great golfers. The great shooters in basketball are great golfers because they’re so target oriented. I think I'm a really good putter and people ask me at the club, “what you think about when you're putting,? You make a lot of putts.” I said, “free throw.” It's a free throw. Same routine, and you get up and you shoot it. That's how I look at putting. I wish I could turn that into my golf swing, that saying.
Leo
That's what's tough, right? Because you've conditioned your body movement for so long to actually not separate the upper and lower body. And field sports, you would never pass a ball behind your back with your hips pointing forward, for example. That's what you're doing in golf. It’s unfortunate, but a lot of field sports struggle unless like you said, they’re target oriented. They really struggle with golf. Our job is sometimes to reverse engineer that and actually create some hand-eye coordination.
Doc
That’s what you guys have done with me. I mean first of all, I bet when you saw me, you saw this guy has the worst body in the world. I'm stiff. I had a hundred injuries. So I struggled with just moving from my career. But I tell you the one thing you guys really helped me on, and you've done more than the one is my body movement. I think it's changed my game at the time. I'm still not great at it, but I'm so much better at it.I still do the drills every day. I mean, I did them this morning. They helped me because I couldn't even get behind the ball. You saw me. I was just picking my hands up. And trying to have a handsy swing instead of just turning around. Now I can turn behind the ball. It feels like I have an hour to hit the ball. It's amazing, the difference. But there's no way I could have done that if I didn't do those exercises.
Mac
Now you're a single digit. That's awesome.
Leo
That’s impressive.
Mac
Well coach, thank you so much for taking the time with us today. I really appreciate it. You're one of the best coaches in sports and it's been a privilege coaching you as well through our, through our business. Look forward to getting out on the golf course once this is all said and done.
Doc
Let's all go play guys. Sooner than later would be nice.
Leo
Yeah. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure and please stay safe, and hopefully we'll get back out there soon enough.
Doc
I can't wait, take care guys. Thanks.
Mac
Thanks coach, take it easy.